The debate continues.

Dulce Dias, euronews: “Welcome everybody to the second part of this special euronews event, during which the leaders of all the European parliament’s political groups will debate where next for Europe?” Sergio Cantone, euronews: “Taking part are Monica Frassoni of the Greens, Nigel Farage from Independence and Democracy, Graham Watson of the European Liberal & Democratic Alliance, Cristiana Muscardini for the Union for a Europe of Nations, Martin Schulz of the European Socialists, Francis Wurtz for the European United Left, and Joseph Daul for the Popular Party.” Dulce Dias, euronews: “The second part of our debate concentrates on the horizon for the next legislature, and my first question is, without the Lisbon treaty what can parliament and Europe achieve? “ Nigel Farage, IND/DEM: “You know, two countries voted ‘no’ to the Constitution, so they repackaged it changed the name, they called it the Lisbon treaty and the only country that voted, voted no! Just as before of course only two countries had a vote on the euro and they both voted ‘no’. The fact is what these people round this table represent is a political class of people who believe in these institutions and that’s fine, but the peoples of Europe increasingly don’t… It’s very difficult to call this European election, it really is, but I do believe the level of protest vote is going to be absolutely enormous.” Sergio Cantone, euronews: “Graham Watson, do you think that one day we will get this Lisbon treaty and the Constitution, in one revised form or another, following its initial rejection?” Graham Watson, ALDE: “I think we will get the Lisbon treaty. There are those who oppose it , there are some organisations fighting it, perhaps financed by the extreme right in America which doesn’t want to see European development. But it’s clear that at the same time the vast majority of Europeans want this development because they know we are stronger when united, and poorer when we’re not. In my opinion it’s very probable the Lisbon treaty will be adopted, but we may have to wait another six months to get it.” Dulce Dias, euronews: “Monica Frassoni?” Monica Frassoni, Greens/ALE: “I want to say right from the start that it’s just not true to say people have said ‘no’ to more Europe in their lives. That’s wrong. In my opinion this idea that on one side you have the people and on the other the members of the European parliament is completely false. Whether we like it or not, we represent the people here, so Europe’s citizens have to be motivated & mobilised to get and out and vote and express their feelings. The Lisbon treaty is a small step towards improving our institutions and the way they work. So it will be good to get Lisbon, but the history of Europe’s democratic transformation doesn’t end there. I think, however, if we don’t get it it will be very difficult to do anything important or positive, notably on climate change, at an international level.” Sergio Cantone, euronews: “Mr. Daul, do you think the next legislature of the European parliament will be the one that cleans up the fallout from the three referendums that said ‘no’ to European treaties?” Joseph Daul, PPE/DE: “I believe that the French presidency showed that we also know how to work under the existing Nice treaty. We did some good work, and even achieved unanimity. Of course the Lisbon treaty is needed for more progress, and better European management, but Europe doesn’t disappear if the Nice treaty remains the framework agreement. I don’t want groups like Mr. Farage’s thinking that if Lisbon fails, then Europe disappears. No. Europe will continue. Our citizens expect us to solve their problems, and it’s centre-right governments who are currently in power in every country who are advancing and proposing answers. Little parties have no say, no responsibility, nothing to do with this, so they can say what they like. That’s the difference between serious politicians and those who spout rubbish because they have no alternative policies to propose, or don’t want to.” Sergio Cantone, euronews: “Monsieur Wurtz, is he talking about you? Do you feel partially responsible for this situation? You were, after all, against the Constitution…” Francis Wurtz, GUE/NGL: “I come from a country where the majority of its citizens did vote against the proposed European Constitution, and I was active in the ‘no’ campaign. So, I will explain myself. But I should stress I totally disagree with Mr. Farage’s view. It’s another example of there not being just the ‘yes’ camp and the ‘no’ camp, it’s far more complicated.” Sergio Cantone, euronews: “OK, but concretely the result is the same…” Francis Wurtz, GUE/NGL: “The problem lies in the Liberal economic model. It’s in the Nice treaty, and in Lisbon. It’s in the Constitution, as it was in the Maastricht treaty. That’s what needs to be changed. It is this that lies at the heart of what I call the crisis of legitimacy.” Sergio Cantone, euronews: “Do you feel that both treaties, the Constitution first of all, and Lisbon, are both neo-Liberal documents?” Martin Schulz, PSE: “Those who believe that Lisbon or the Constitution have less of a social dimension than the Nice treaty we operate under today haven’t read them. Let’s be clear about this. They are both more, not less concerned with social policies. It’s not everything we wished for, but it’s still progress. But allow me if you will to say something about democracy. Farage belongs to a group that’s always going on about legitimacy via referendum, but he ignores the fact some countries have no tradition of such a vote where international treaties are concerned, and he maintains parliamentary ratification is less valid than a referendum. I don’t think that’s acceptable. There’s a nation that’s outside the EU, has no tradition of referendums, but is nonetheless very democratic. It’s called America. Germany has no tradition of holding referendums, and I’ll tell you why. In Germany I have always been against them. Imagine if enlargement had been subject to… maybe you should listen first and laugh afterwards. Imagine if Germany had held referendums on Polish, Czech or other new memberships. I don’t think it would have been a good idea if Germany had held European enlargement hostage to referendums. The ratification in both houses of the German parliament was absolutely democratic. My last comment Mr. Farage is there were four referendums on the Constitution. one in the Netherlands, lost, one in France, lost, and two others. In Spain 72 percent voted ‘yes’, and in Luxembourg the ‘yes’ vote was 60 percent. In all the countries that held referendums the majority voted for the Constitution. Do you respect that democracy?” Nigel Farage, IND/DEM: “What you’re saying Mr Shultz, the implications of what you are saying for the whole concept of democracy is truly terrifying. You’re saying we mustn’t ask the German people what they think, we must lead them, this is terrifying. I’ll never forget the day after the Irish voted ‘no’ you said in parliament that, ‘We must not bow to populism’, and I hope you will now apologise for that comment. It is absolutely… You are anti-democratic. You believe a ruling class knows what’s best for ordinary people. It’s monstrous.” Martin Schulz, PSE: “It’s an honour to be called anti-democratic by you. Thank you!”More about: European elections

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